I like your suggestion to remove the military unhappiness caused by ships with 0 attack. I'll try to make the patch.
I agree that AIs hardly use it because they are always at war, with many units outside their national borders. And I agree the ruleset should try to adapt to AI weaknesses. It would be great if this change increases the chances of AIs using Democracy, but in my tests, the governments chosen by the AI change a lot from one version of Freeciv to another. Imho, AI is not a good reference to compare the power of governments.
I don't think Democracy gets obsolete in civ2civ3. I think it is always the government that allows the highest production of science (to maximize bulbs), except for big empires in large maps, where Federation could end being better, but Democracy would remain better for smaller nations.
The extra trade per tile of Democracy and Republic use to be better than the reduced corruption/waste of Federation. Specially If you build the ecclesiastical palace, and courthouses in your cities (that halves corruption/waste). If you find Federation better even in the case of small nations (I'm talking about 30 cities or so), then it would require some rebalance, but it is not true in my tests. Actually, I think that Democracy might be a bit overpowered in civ2civ3, and I planned to reduce its empire size in my "earth" version of the ruleset.
If you don't find use for Republic and Democracy, maybe you are not taking full advantage of Celebration. It requires to increase a lot the luxury rates to force cities to start celebrating, but the extra trade generated once they are celebrating allows to reduce again the luxury rates, and the resultant output use to be better than any other government. Of course, it is suppose to be hard to achieve while you are attacking other nations.
If you already took into account what I said, and you still find Democracy underpowered, please let me know, and tell me the number of cities (or average distance to capital) of your nation when Democracy is no longer useful.
Reply To bard
I like your suggestion to remove the military unhappiness caused by ships with 0 attack. I'll try to make the patch. . . . If you already took into account what I said, and you still find Democracy underpowered, please let me know, and tell me the number of cities (or average distance to capital) of your nation when Democracy is no longer useful.
I agree with you. If we remove 1 unhappy for attack 0 ships, then Democracy would be complete POWER (maybe even too powerful - but I'll have to test with the patch, first), for diplomatic players who can stay largely at peace and in celebration. It's only a problem because of these ships and their affect on happiness.
I look forward to testing your patch and playing some Democracy.
alain_bkr Democracy rocks:
i love democracy , and easily beat AI when i can reach this government and start to be leader in technology and then win with cultural victory or space race, no need to make war :)
Even with 15 cities i manage to beat several empires , some with 50 or more cities.
I believe a real strength of democracy is that unit and cities cannot be bribed. I hate when my enemies are under democracy : It often cost much less effort to "buy" enemy units/cities than to produce and manage enough unit to capture it by brute force. ( btw, AI should do this more often with its money, it would be more challenging for humans, but AI also underestimate the value of technology, library ...)
Reply To alain_bkr
Democracy rocks: i love democracy , and easily beat AI when i can reach this government and start to be leader in technology
Are you talking about the civ2civ3 ruleset? In classic ruleset I would agree with you.
In civ2civ3, for much of the game, Federation gives you more science than Democracy. For this current game, I tested dem and fed, celebrating and not. I turned the luxury up, got the cities to celebrate, and then turned it down as much as possible so that still more than half the cities were celebrating. Gold was turned down so that income was still positive. In this table, first number is bulbs and the second is gold.
Dem 395/75 Dem celebrate 388/36 Fed 548/72 Fed celebrate 471/75Democracy and Celebration does worst of all. But Federation beats Democracy hands down.
OK, this is while cities are still quite small, the economy is still production centric and offshore-platforms haven't been researched yet (not so many people on the water). There are still some Wonders/Improvements that would increase luxury and the Ecclesiastical Palace hasn't been built yet, so I expect this arrangement to shift a bit, later on.
I'll attach the game if you doubt these stats.
30 turns later on, we've got all the Wonders that help happiness and luxury. Each city has an off-shore platform, but economy is still rather production heavy. Although researched, we haven't built any Research Labs or Super Highways yet. Almost all ship units are inside national borders. City populations range from 11 to 14. Now the table is:
Dem 969/113 Dem celebrate 1197/68 Fed 1210/39 Fed celebrate 1193/112There isn't so much between the last 3. Democracy without celebration is bad, clearly. Between Democracy and Federation celebrating, it's a toss up between 40 extra gold per turn vs. unbribeable units.
We haven't built an Ecclesiastical Place yet.
Another 30 turns on and all 17 cities have made all improvements to do with science, happiness and gold (Super Highways was the last). All cities have all gold-producing tiles worked (including all water). All units are within national borders. It won't get better than this for science (without sacrificing production, for scientists) - I'll lose gold as my cities build their remaining defenses.
The table now is:
Dem 2340/49 Dem celebrate 2420/190 Fed 2356/90 Fed celebrate 2532/264 Comm 2012/32 Rep 2124/64 Rep celebrate 2156/169 Mon 2148/55 Mon celebrate 2192/181 Fun 1755/626 Fun celebrate 1774/225 Des 1712/226 Des celebrate 1464/11 Tri 1648/191 Tri celebrate 1168/174
At this stage of the game, celebration is better for science for all governments except Despotism and Tribalism. We can also see that at all stages of the game, Federation is on par with Democracy or better, for science.
This is still without an Ecclesiastical Palace. I'm still experimenting with where to put it for maximum effect. If anyone wants to check my stats, I'll attach a savegame.
Thank you for the detailed report. I used to do similar comparisons in my games, but it is useful to see them coming from other players/games.
When I said to take into account celebration bonuses of Democracy, I meant it in order to compare it to govs that can't celebrate like Communism or Fundamentalism. Federation and Democracy can be compared without the need to celebrate. In theory, with Federation it should be easier to celebrate due to the luxury bonuses (+2 per city) and lower corruption, but Democracy should allow to generate more science due to the extra trade per tile (in non oceanic tiles) and the increased max tax rate (90%).
I have seen your savegames, and it looks like a small empire (under 20 cities) in an average size map (124x62), that uses to be a good scenario for Democracy. In your case, the reason why Federation is better than Democracy is because most of the tiles around most of your cities are oceanic or hills/forests, that do not receive the bonus to trade from Democracy\Republic. If your cities were surrounded by plains or grassland, I bet Democracy would be much better most of the time.
It is hard to keep governments balanced for any possible game setup (continental/island, map size, number of nations/cities, terrain type). For large empires in huge maps, Federation and Communism will always end being the best ones (because they do not increase the corruption due to distance from capital). But I tried to design the governments so they all can be useful for small empires in certain situations:
- Communism to maximize production of shields.
- Fundamentalism to maximize production of gold.
- Democracy to maximize production of science.
- Federation to make it easier to handle unhappiness.
The fact that Democracy/Republic do not give bonuses at oceanic tiles, makes it possible for Federation to be better for small oceanic nations, even when corruption is low. It was designed this way on purpose, but I admit I use to test the mod in continental maps, and I didn't realize that every nation is oceanic in an island based map.
I don't think Democracy is underpowered. Even in your game, Democracy stats looks almost as good as Federation, and better than other govs, when the map is not a good one for Democracy. It is Federation that might be a bit overpowered. My suggestion would be to test to reduce the bonus to luxury per city for Federation, from +2 to +1, as it was in older versions of the ruleset.
I remember to increase the bonus because Federation was never worth in my games until later in game, when corruption starts to be a problem. But I rather see a Federation that does not use to be worth in early stages of the game, than seing it as the best government all along the game.
Reply To bard
It is hard to keep governments balanced for any possible game setup (continental/island, map size, number of nations/cities, terrain type).
Absolutely. And I'm amazed that you and the other ruleset developers manage to do as well as you do.
So, I'll experiment with Democracy in more landy-games. But don't forget about that patch for us to try out - no unhappiness for ships with attack 0 - for Democracy in more watery-worlds.
Patch for master (including the same changes for civ2civ3 and sandbox):
"Galleon, Transport and Carrier (ships with attack = 0) no longer cause unhappiness (when they end the turn outside national borders). Fighter units (with fuel > 1) can now cause unhappiness due to military activity."
I have not made patches for long time (since freeciv used svn and hrm), Please, developers, let me know if the patch is alright, because I plan to do some more patches for these rulesets, and I'll use this one as reference.
I have tested it with master version (3.1.90.3-dev), and with a savegame from chippo, that seems to load without problems.
I changed the fighters too, because they have fuel > 1 in this ruleset (compared to classic where they did not cause unhappiness). With these changes, void Carriers do not cause unhappiness, but the carried fighters will cause unhappiness. Chippo, let me know what do you think about this change to fighters.
Reply To bard
Patch for master (including the same changes for civ2civ3 and sandbox):
Tx. Looking forward to testing.
I have not made patches for long time (since freeciv used svn and hrm), Please, developers, let me know if the patch is alright, because I plan to do some more patches for these rulesets, and I'll use this one as reference.
Well, it applies and compiles fine. And it 'looks' like other patches from cazfi. I suspect you're doing it all correctly.
I changed the fighters too, because they have fuel > 1 in this ruleset (compared to classic where they did not cause unhappiness). With these changes, void Carriers do not cause unhappiness, but the carried fighters will cause unhappiness. Chippo, let me know what do you think about this change to fighters.
Excellent. I would have considered it a problem if I had noticed that fighters didn't cause unhappiness when parked just offshore an enemy's capital.
On the issue of ships and their attack rating, do the AIs know that Triremes and Caravels can attack? As soon as the AIs get Frigates, they engage in serious naval combat (with me and each other), but I never saw an AI attack with a Trireme or a Caravel.
Reply To bard
Patch for master
He, he. I evilly noticed that the patch applies to S3_0 fine, so I can do several tests in the same testgame.
Reply To chippo Reply To (Anonymous)
Well, it applies and compiles fine. And it 'looks' like other patches from cazfi. I suspect you're doing it all correctly.
Thank you. Btw, changes to rulesets do not need to be compiled. They are simple text editing (that you could try without much coding knowledge), and in most cases should be possible to continue old savegames. Just exit the game, apply the patch, load the game, and the changes should appear in game.
Excellent. I would have considered it a problem if I had noticed that fighters didn't cause unhappiness when parked just offshore an enemy's capital.
We agree then. I think the patch could be considered to be included in S3_0 (that is up to developers), since it improves balance with few chances of breaking anything.
On the issue of ships and their attack rating, do the AIs know that Triremes and Caravels can attack? As soon as the AIs get Frigates, they engage in serious naval combat (with me and each other), but I never saw an AI attack with a Trireme or a Caravel.
From my tests, AIs do no like to attack unless odds are better than 50%, and this is never the case with triremes or caravels. They do not seem to take into account the value of the enemy cargo (50% you lose 1 trireme; 50% the enemy loses trireme+cargo), or the fact that you can use a second trireme to finish the job (50% to kill enemy trireme without loses; almost 50% to kill 1 enemy trireme, losing 1 own trireme). On the other hand, AI expansion would be seriously damaged if Triremes/Caravels continually attack each other, so I like the current behaviour for civ2civ3.
Reply To cazfi
Is the issue to be considered critical? I.e. should we still target this to S3_0?
No. It's a feature request and we don't yet know whether it helps its intended issue of alleviating Republic/Democracy unhappiness when you aren't warring.
I think that the unasked for fix of GIVING unhappiness to fighters is probably more important that the removing of unhappiness for transport craft.
I just patched it into S3_0 so that I can test it and continue my S3_0 tests/experiments.
I must say, though, the patch is making my life under Monarchy a lot sweeter, but it's also helping my enemies and Monarchy is the only sane government choice just yet.
From the little visibility I have of the project, the only critical-must-be-in-S3_0 thing I know of is: "make Hard harder than Normal". There isn't exactly a ticket for it, but enough people are aware of it and if the tax-lock ticket doesn't cover it, I'll raise a new ticket with the words in quotes.
Reply To bard
I think the patch could be considered to be included in S3_0 (that is up to developers), since it improves balance with few chances of breaking anything.
Earlier, I responded to cazfi, and said that we didn't need to squeeze it into S3_0. But with support from you, and the fact that it doesn't change any C code, I've changed my mind and encourage that it be included in S3_0. And more for the fighters than the transports.
I'm running with S3_0 latest, with bard's happiness-patch and cazfi's AI-government-gold-patch. I dunno whether it's random-noise or either of these patches, but I currently have 3 AIs running Democracy - something I haven't seen for ages.
Reply To cazfi
Is the issue to be considered critical? I.e. should we still target this to S3_0?
I agree what Chippo said. I'd not consider it a "critical" patch. It is not a bug, and game is playable without it. Even the part about fighters can't be considered a bug, just a questionable design decision. However, the fact that AIs do not use Republic nor Democracy could be considered critical. If this patch helps on that regard, it might be considered to be included in 3.0, I'm not sure.
I wish I was active last year to work on this kind of balance adjustments before the release of 3.0, but I know I'm a bit late now, and I'd understand if they are targeted for 3.1.
I will be closing this ticket when the patch gets pushed in. Please open a new one if further adjustments are needed (Would it have been a good idea to keep this one as a metaticket, and individual patches as separate tickets?)
Reply To chippo
it doesn't change any C code
Yes, rulesets are just datafiles, and it's considered an end-user feature that one can make own rulesets or modify existing ones.
Reply To cazfi
(Would it have been a good idea to keep this one as a metaticket, and individual patches as separate tickets?)
No, close this ticket. It was intended to get unhappiness on transports dropped. And there is a little evidence that Democracy is being more used by AIs (but that might also be affected by the tax-locking patch).
Follow up patches/thoughts to this deep but not understood issue, should have a ticket with a title that mentions AIs or Gold or Government or something appropriate - not this title.
@bard: I'm having a lot more happiness (pun intended) playing Democracy on a landy-map with the happiness patch. I haven't researched Economics yet, so can't compare.
One of the intentions of civ2civ3 is to reduce micro-management, and this happiness patch has certainly done that. No more manually counting city Improvements vs. deployed units, before you send a Galleon out with Caravans. The patch has also reduced my micro-management under Monarchy.
Reply To cazfi
I will be closing this ticket when the patch gets pushed in. Please open a new one if further adjustments are needed (Would it have been a good idea to keep this one as a metaticket, and individual patches as separate tickets?)
i think a metaticket is not needed in this case, since there are no plans for other related patches.
Reply To chippo
One of the intentions of civ2civ3 is to reduce micro-management, and this happiness patch has certainly done that. No more manually counting city Improvements vs. deployed units, before you send a Galleon out with Caravans. The patch has also reduced my micro-management under Monarchy.
I agree that unit upkeep (unhappiness, but also gold/shield/food) is one of the main causes of micro-management in this ruleset. If you have other ideas to try to reduce it, let me know (open a new ticket).
I wish it was possible to handle unit upkeep globally for the entire nation. I mean, if each city grants 1 unit free of upkeep, and you have 12 cities, then you have 12 units free of upkeep, no matter the city where they were built/asigned. But it would still be problematic to decide which city gets the unhappiness (or the shield/food penalty). I have to check if v3.1 or later include some new feature related to unit upkeep.
The idea to convert this to metaticket was better than I first thought. There are several things that could be changed to try to improve this aspect of the ruleset. I'll open a new ticket now this one is closed.
In the current civ2civ3 ruleset, Democracy as a form of government is obsolete. That is to say, I never have a use for it and the AIs almost never do, and then only briefly.
Democracy would be useful at the start, but one hasn't researched it yet. During the expansion and trading phases, the crippling unhappiness makes it unusable. Then when the campaign phase starts it's even less desirable.
I propose that Democracy could be made into a useful government for the middle phases if we removed the 1 Unhappy on ships that have Attack 0, i.e. Galleons and Transports. This would also make The Republic more useful (which I and the AIs underuse) which suffers from a lesser, but similar problem.